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|-+ Session 7 Finished - Voting Closed

Poll: The theme is "Bullet Grazing", what's your favourite?
Poll Results The theme is "Bullet Grazing", what's your favourite?
Ablach Blackrat's entry: Vector Scape Arena -  2 (18.2%)
BattleZero's entry: Grazer -  0 (0%)
kdmiller3's entry: Buzz Kill -  2 (18.2%)
Owen Butler's entry: grazier -  0 (0%)
the2bears' entry: The Monument -  1 (9.1%)
UArchitect's entry: Aphid -  1 (9.1%)
Worstplayer's entry: scrape -  5 (45.5%)
Total Voters: 11
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Read December 23, 2008, 07:02:09 am #0
the2bears

Session 7 Finished - Voting Closed

Session 7 is over (though stragglers are always welcome until I go to bed...)

Looks like a good turnout, at least 7 entries were submitted.  Really looking forward to playing these, I had quite a lot of fun doing this theme.  So keep in mind the theme, and which game shows promising ideas using it.  Doesn't always have to be the most polished but in a tie we know that shiny graphics sell Wink

Note:  BattleZero's entry currently has a missing dependency.  They may upload a new version.

Update:  Voting is now closed, congratulations to Worstplayer and scrape for "winning" Smiley

Bill
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 12:05:40 am by the2bears »

the2bears - the indie shmup blog
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Read December 23, 2008, 05:07:34 pm #1
VectorVanDoom

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

ahhh, i wrote plenty of text, then i accidently hit my darn mousebutton and its gone, cuz i changed back to last page. wth!!!

as with my gameprogramming im too lazy to rewrite it so just in short:

my favorite is Scrape by Worstplayer due to beautyfoo graphix and good gameplay, yet i missed some variation in enemies. probably i didnt reach the boss yet.

Grazer by BattleZero looks nice like an arcade, but the window could be 2x, the scrapping should be visible and also the hitzone/ship feels a little bit too big for my taste. after all it heavily relies on remembering or one will get trapped in a rain of bullets.

kdmiller's BuzzKill i have yet to play, sorry, why not just use zip? nvm i'll get it...

Vector Scape arena, was a tat to monotonous and slow, since i like it manic, the theme of grazing seems to be a bit too extended, but nevertheless its well implemented.

UArchitect's Aphid, i wondered how to shoot at first, maybe include a short readme or help fiel in the /help directory.the graphic appears a bit blend due to the fullbright and glowing graphix.

the2bears' entry: The Monument
ye olde sprites, gotta get used to em since he wont change em ever Wink. i didnt come far in this one, so the bullet patterns may vary further in the level, but if not its a bit tedious(read: monotone)

Owen Butler's entry: grazier
whats goin on in this one, flowers and rainbows, yet its no cute'em up... from my pov a shooter is supposed to be brutal, spinebraking hard game. the game mechanics like, grazing and smartbombs seem to be there, but its too easy imo, cuz u get a smartbomb every ten seconds. therefore the plan seems to be to simply overwhelm the player by increasing amounts of green wobbling enemies. also i miss highscores

after all grazing appears to be a nice risk/reward system, thats anyway challenging. By my standards its astounding what you have done in two weeks, cheers. i am still interested in which different methods you guys used to implement grazing. polar coordinates, simple collision detection, what else is there? do you use tiling the playfield for that, too?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 05:09:45 pm by VectorVanDoom »
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Read December 24, 2008, 02:17:50 am #2
the2bears

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

the2bears' entry: The Monument
ye olde sprites, gotta get used to em since he wont change em ever Wink. i didnt come far in this one, so the bullet patterns may vary further in the level, but if not its a bit tedious(read: monotone)

You're right, there's a lack of content.  However, I think you're missing the point.  This is a rapid prototype, and as such is not supposed to be showing off new graphics and a lot of bullet patterns.  It's a quick take on a mechanic that fits the theme.  If you (the developer) don't get the game play down first (and I don't know that I have), what's the point with the rest?

Bill


the2bears - the indie shmup blog
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Read December 24, 2008, 05:19:47 am #3
UArchitect

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

UArchitect's Aphid, i wondered how to shoot at first, maybe include a short readme or help fiel in the /help directory.

woops, probably should have included a readme, i did post the controls in the thread but its a bit walloftext so easy to miss, i assumed what i believed were the most common shooter controls:
Quote
use arrow keys to move, Z to shoot and X to use the special weapon (when your companion is large and pulsing/glowing) the special weapon will clear the screen of enemies and bullets
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Read December 24, 2008, 09:27:28 am #4
worstplayer

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

Can't decide between BuzzKill and Aphid. Both are fantastic games. Aphid is technically more impressive(Is that Unreal engine?  Shocked ), but Buzzkill has better gameplay. I'll play them some more before voting.
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Read December 24, 2008, 01:31:31 pm #5
VectorVanDoom

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

It's a quick take on a mechanic that fits the theme.  If you (the developer) don't get the game play down first (and I don't know that I have), what's the point with the rest?

well, sure you have, only if your idea was do base a game aroubnd this level repeating, than it wouldnt be as cool as if there were more types of enemy sequences and thus different challenges, you get me? it would make good game, maybe with smartbombs, but i assume you dont plan on developing it further, rather than saving energy for the next session. btw, did u use BulletML? it looks like.

and UArchitect, i hadnt a problem with controles at all i figured it out fast enough and if its written in the thread its somewhere so i just coulda look it up Wink

BuzzKill i still have to play, its buzzy hollidays.

Merry christmass to you all and a happy new year,

Vector
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Read December 24, 2008, 02:19:36 pm #6
kdmiller3

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

Can't decide between BuzzKill and Aphid. Both are fantastic games. Aphid is technically more impressive(Is that Unreal engine?  Shocked ), but Buzzkill has better gameplay. I'll play them some more before voting.

The enemy waves in Buzz Kill are pretty much straight out of my previous entries, but I'm happy that you like it.  Smiley

(The shocking thing to me is how often enemy shots hit even with reduced projectile velocity and much smaller collision box on the player ship.  Of course, the "graze" mechanic does encourage the player to hang around enemy shots far more than they should... Grin)
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Read December 24, 2008, 07:33:19 pm #7
the2bears

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

btw, did u use BulletML? it looks like.

No, not using BulletML.  I'd like to abstract the bullets out, like BulletML does, just haven't written a good engine to do that yet.

Bill


the2bears - the indie shmup blog
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Read December 25, 2008, 06:27:01 am #8
hima

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

Glad to see that there are many entries this time! Might take me a while before I can vote though Smiley
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Read December 25, 2008, 06:53:12 pm #9
VectorVanDoom

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

BuzzKill i still have to play, its buzzy hollidays.
oops, pun was not intended, anyway i finally played buzzkill and i like it. its a hard decission for me now.
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Read December 25, 2008, 07:54:30 pm #10
Flawe

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

Hey guys, it's been a while since I posted last but I usually check on you guys to see what you're up to Smiley
I had a play through all the entries and here are my thoughts:

The monument:
I'm afraid I couldn't get this to run. I have the latest (as far as I know) java installed but it hung on "GameController waiting..."

Scrape:
I'm not really into bullet hell stuff but this was kinda fun. I liked the bullet patterns and when I died it didn't make me feel like I sucked Tongue Still, the actual grazing part was a bit confusing. The ship felt a bit too big and the collision random, almost. Sometimes I expected bullets to hit me when they didn't and other times they hit me when I expected them not to.

Owen Butler's entry:
Flowers? Cool, very nice touch on it, heh. The grazing gameplay felt a bit basic. It was well implemented but wasn't really used in a unique way. Also sometimes the ship bugged and wouldn't let me move up or down, only to the sides. Which made things harder Tongue

Vector Scape Arena:
I got very confused by the shapes and colors. And when the red ships/bullets started to show up I really couldn't find my cursor, heh. I really liked how the idea was implemented though. Very interesting and could really work in a full game. This should definitely be further developed in my humble opinion. I found it really fun to play, although sometimes the bouncing bullets bounced mathematically incorrect, maybe that was the point though Smiley

Grazer:
Another well implementation of the grazing idea although also a bit basic. The controls felt a bit unintuitive as well. Shooting with space and pressing 'M' (was it?) to switch weapon modes felt weird. I'm not familiar with common shmup controls so could be just me Smiley Also I wanted to level the weapons somehow (power ups or whatever) but that was just a personal opinion....like everything else I guess Smiley

Aphid:
Very cool looking game although it's slightly epileptic for me Cheesy I love how the grazing mechanic was used. Very original (if it wasn't used before I guess Tongue). The game could really do with some sounds though. It was very hard to know what was happening. The player needs an indication that grazing bullets is good but you didn't get much feedback. It wasn't obvious right away that the companion got bigger and it definitely wasn't obvious if that was a good thing or not. In these cases it's really not enough to type stuff in a readme file, they need to be "in your face".

BuzzKill:
Buzz Killington from family guy anyone? Doesn't have anything to do with the game but I like that show Tongue Anyway, I liked the usage of grazing. It was clear when and how the power bar got filled. There are smaller details though that were implemented a bit poorly in my opinion. For example, it doesn't really matter when you power bar fills up, you just get the new weapon. Which means the power bar is either unnecessary or misplaced. I wouldn't say unnecessary because it's fun having a bar filling up, it gives you the "one more bullet" type of feeling that keeps you playing. But in that case, the bar is in the wrong place. For a so hectic game it's not easy to keep track of where the ship is and also look at the top corner of the screen to see the bar, and move your eyes between those places. I would put the bar in form of a circle around or on the ship, like lights or whatever. This way the player needs to look in the same place to get all the information.

Since the theme was bullet grazing I based my vote on how that mechanic was used and how well it worked in the game. I know it's hard to make a full game but it's not much easier to make a prototype of a small mechanic, especially if the mechanic is based on many other aspects of the game. For instance, if the bullet grazing is well implemented it is still affected by the enemy AI. If the enemies fly around stupidly the bullet patterns will be bad and therefore how and when the player can graze the bullets will be affected. I've felt this in some of the prototypes from above and it's kind of a shame. The prototype would feel much better if small things like these were fixed, or avoided some how. But there's not time for anything.

My vote has to go to Aphid, since I felt Aphid used the mechanic in an original way that worked well throughout the game. But I can say I would really have enjoyed the game more if it had a better indication of what the player did or should do.

Well done to all of you. It's been fun playing the games and I'm looking forward to next round Smiley
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Read December 25, 2008, 10:14:46 pm #11
the2bears

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

The monument:
I'm afraid I couldn't get this to run. I have the latest (as far as I know) java installed but it hung on "GameController waiting..."

Sometimes, on rare occasions I get this too.  I believe there must be an odd race condition in the start-up threads.  Usually just "control-c" and restarting sorts this.  If not, then I'm not sure what's going on.  I've been meaning to try and figure this out...

Bill


the2bears - the indie shmup blog
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Read December 26, 2008, 10:06:43 am #12
Flawe

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

It happened a couple of times I'm afraid. But I'll keep trying cause I'd love to try it out Smiley
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Read December 26, 2008, 11:24:26 am #13
Sar

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

I'm a bit short on time these days, so I'll keep my feedback very brief compared to previous sessions, I'm afraid. I might come back and say more about a couple of them later if I have the time.

Ablach Blackrat's Vector Scrape Arena
I didn't really like this one... it was executed well enough technically, and the variety of bullets and patterns was going in the right direction, but there were two problems for me - firstly, the enemies didn't come nearly fast enough, so it wasn't so engaging; secondly, the bullet-capture mechanic drastically limited the amount of shooting you could do, making it far more of a sniping game than most shooters. I'm not sure of the heat mechanic for that reason - why not allow the player to collect as many bullets as he feels he needs, so he can do more actual shooting?

Technically, also, a few times I had bullets but the game didn't register my clicks for shots, which was pretty frustrating.

Battlezero's Grazer
It's exactly my kind of game, and technically and presentationally it's pretty good, but it just didn't feel fun, I'm afraid. I think a lot of it was level/enemy-design issues, the guys who fire an arc of bullets in front of them were very hard to avoid when there was more than one of them next to each other. Not helped by the fact that I never really got a clear idea of where the hitbox was, and the movement was a little jerky for my taste, given the grazing mechanic. Definitely needs some feedback to tell the player when they've successfully grazed, as well.

KDMiller's Buzz Kill
Hm. Works fairly well, but doesn't draw me back. The arena style doesn't help in this kind of game, I think, it makes the patterns too chaotic, coming from all directions, and grazing becomes too much of a chore you have to perform rather than something that's an integral part of the method of playing the game. Nice purple sparks, though. ;-)

Owen Butler's Grazier
I really liked this, it's got fairly good feedback for grazing, and the bullets-to-flowers thing is nice. I would suggest a few things to improve it, though: Firstly, try drawing the bullets on top of the flowers instead of behind them; otherwise, a dense bullet field is almost more deadly after you've used your power, because you suddenly can't see where the bullets are. Secondly, give the player some more-obvious feedback - audio or graphical as to when their special is ready, because the gauge in the bottom-right is too far from the action to see, really.

the2bear's Monument
This one was also pretty nice, and one of the few that I felt compelled to keep going back and playing more. The power-up-the-shot mechanic is pretty standard, but making it necessary to avoid being crushed was a nice twist. The main complaint I'd have is difficulty curve - as in, there wasn't one, so it was rare that I actually had any problem with the monument itself at all, because I'd died from my bullet allergy instead before it became an issue. But that's less of a design-prototype issue.

UArchitect's Aphid
Graphically very nice, certainly! However, the graphical style was also a bit of a confusion. It was hard to tell when you successfully grazed sometimes because the graze sparks were the same colour as everything else, it wasn't clear how healthy you were because the helper blended in with the background, it wasn't entirely clear how big the hitbox or the graze radius was because of the other issues... The movement was also a little too fast for my taste, given the apparently-large hitbox.
I'd say the mechanic certainly isn't a bad one, but there's some gameplay issues with the shiny graphics, IMO.

Worstplayer's Scrape
This easily wins the "best tactility" award from me, the graze feedback was excellent and I felt I had a natural understanding of the graze radius, the hitbox, movement and so on. The missile mechanic is fairly standard, but well-executed, and I liked the twist that it also clears bullets when the gauge is full. My only problems are that it wasn't so obvious from the player's point of view when the gauge got full, and I'm not sure I liked the re-use of the fire button to also fire missiles; it meant that I had to lift off and then re-press the button to bomb, effectively, meaning my reaction times were drastically reduced compared to just hitting a separate button straight off.

It's a hard toss-up between Worstplayer's and the2bears' for me, right now - I'll try and come back and vote later when I've thought about it a bit more. ;-)
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Read December 26, 2008, 03:14:34 pm #14
Ablach Blackrat

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

Since most people went for the graze to power up a special weapon, I went for what I felt was the most well done and that was Worstplayer's Graze.  During hectic battles it was easy to see where you graze meter was and being able to use it anytime the player wanted with varying power levels helped quite a bit.
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Read December 26, 2008, 03:32:10 pm #15
Sar

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

Having played both a bit more, and having noticed the 'bip!' sound effect when you get a full gauge on Worstplayer's entry, that's where I'm sticking my vote. I still think that I'd prefer a second button for missiles, but it's definitely a game that I'd like to see more of, with some structured variety in enemies and new patterns and so on!
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Read December 26, 2008, 03:42:38 pm #16
LorenzoGatti

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

I voted Ablach Blackrat. Good idea (somewhat similar to what I would have done if I had time), good production values, good balance and difficulty progression.
Other entries:
  • BattleZero: great graphics, but I cross the fine line between grazing and getting hit too easily. The oversized bullets and vague hitbox don't help.
  • kdmiller3: doesn't work for me. I'm unable to press the buttons on the starting screen, it only understands Alt-F4.
  • Owen Butler: there is an unpleasant interaction of otherwise benign features: enemies tend to shoot in dense rows of bullets and grazed bullets remain dangerous, so that straightforward attempts to squeeze between incoming bullets or to catch the bullets and retreat are pointless and the right way to graze is from behind.
  • the2bears: well done as usual, but the punishing difficulty makes dodging for survival too hard to care about grazing.
  • UArchitect: good design (I particularly liked the player's weapons), but slow (except for some strange brief speedups) and therefore too easy; in particular, why should one use the bomb if keeping the option as a shield allows the player to remain effectively invulnerable?.
  • Worstplayer: the best graphics of all, but way too fast; I suspect it's my PC's fault.
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Read December 26, 2008, 07:10:49 pm #17
Ablach Blackrat

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

I'm not sure of the heat mechanic for that reason - why not allow the player to collect as many bullets as he feels he needs, so he can do more actual shooting?

Technically, also, a few times I had bullets but the game didn't register my clicks for shots, which was pretty frustrating.

I implemented the heat monitor so that people wouldn't sit on one easy level and gather a large amount of bullets before moving on, thereby defeating the whole purpose of the game.  But I kept the settings pretty low; you can get quite a few bullets.

As for the clicks no registering I'll look into that.  I didn't come across that error myself but I didn't get to do the month of so bug testing that I usually allow myself.




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Read December 26, 2008, 08:52:34 pm #18
Sar

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

I implemented the heat monitor so that people wouldn't sit on one easy level and gather a large amount of bullets before moving on, thereby defeating the whole purpose of the game.  But I kept the settings pretty low; you can get quite a few bullets.

Sure, but it's still a limit. Essentially, when I start playing a shooter I usually want to be shooting things, and that's the main thing I'm not doing most of the time in this game.

It's mostly not annoying because I'm not shooting, but because I have to be very careful with my aim when I do shoot, because I could run out of ammo at any moment. Since some of the enemies change direction abruptly, and leading an enemy with the slow bullets from the other side of the arena is pretty tricky anyway, in the end I tended to shoot enemies by going right up in front of them and popping them in the face so they couldn't move too much before the bullets got there. It seemed that the bullets moved from the position in orbit around me they'd reached, so occasionally they sailed right past the enemy anyway...


If you want to discourage people sitting and harvesting early enemies, why not just have some timeout after which the 'level' ends and more-powerful enemies start to arrive anyway? Surviving more than X seconds is still not entirely straightforward, it's not like doing so would allow people who'd fallen asleep at the keyboard to survive the first few levels...
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Read December 26, 2008, 10:27:53 pm #19
worstplayer

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

After replaying all the entries, I must say, all were very interesting, all used theme of the week well.

I especially liked Aphid, BuzzKill and The Monument, but because of Aphid's extremely short length and the fact that I only managed to get The Monument to run once and it refused to work again (which is shame, the idea of having to cut your way through endless blocks is very interesting), my vote goes to Buzzkill.

It would win anyway, since pretty much everything about that game kicks ass, and it not only gets my vote for this week, but also honorable permanent membership of my c:/games/shmups/ Cheesy

I like simple, but addictive "power-up with grazing" mechanism, attention-grabbing sound effects, glowy Geometry Wars-style graphics, brutal combat against aggressive but slowly-turning enemies (although turrets and mine-layers are practically harmless), the fact that after losing health, you can almost immediately repair yourself by collecting large number of "geoms" lying around, which turns "extend management" into simple matter of surviving or not surviving.
Hell, I like almost everything about that game.

Another bonus point goes for how view follows where the player aims. This tiny detail greatly enhances player's aiming capabilities and i'd like to see it in more games like this.

My only criticism is that the game only supports WASD&mouse controls. Seriously, every arena shmup since they were invented used dual stick controls, so why not this one?

« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 10:51:06 pm by worstplayer »
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Read December 27, 2008, 12:10:53 am #20
kdmiller3

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

The default input setup supports mouse and keyboard (WADS) along with a generic dual-joystick gamepad layout, though some devices like the Xbox 360 controller require a somewhat different layout.  I need to add input configuration to the options menu, since the alternatives are somewhat technical and user-unfriendly.

I don't know why input would fail entirely, though.  That's a new one.  The shell does use the aim and fire controls, not the mouse specifically, so gamepad-only input configurations would use the gamepad for that.

Also, if anyone wants to bump up the difficulty, open the level file (level.xml), search for the comment <!-- enemy weapon --> (line 634), then go a few lines down to <velocity x="0" y="120"> (line 637) and increase the y value to 150 or even 180.  That will increase the velocity of enemy shots so you can't just "draft" them until they expire.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 12:25:37 am by kdmiller3 »
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Read December 27, 2008, 01:28:51 am #21
Ablach Blackrat

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

It's mostly not annoying because I'm not shooting, but because I have to be very careful with my aim when I do shoot, because I could run out of ammo at any moment. Since some of the enemies change direction abruptly, and leading an enemy with the slow bullets from the other side of the arena is pretty tricky anyway, in the end I tended to shoot enemies by going right up in front of them and popping them in the face so they couldn't move too much before the bullets got there. It seemed that the bullets moved from the position in orbit around me they'd reached, so occasionally they sailed right past the enemy anyway...

Maybe it's because I've played it so much but I've found it quite easy to move around, harvest a few bullets, then go all out and blast away, especially on higher levels with the exploding bullets (they have an area effect, taking out multiple enemies at once).  I'm still working on the game though and have put in several area effect power ups that clear the screen fairly quickly so hopefully it will balance it out.  I'll also change it so that the bullets move out from the player, rather than their place in orbit.

If you want to discourage people sitting and harvesting early enemies, why not just have some timeout after which the 'level' ends and more-powerful enemies start to arrive anyway? Surviving more than X seconds is still not entirely straightforward, it's not like doing so would allow people who'd fallen asleep at the keyboard to survive the first few levels...

It already does move through the levels on their own, once every minute, but since most people seem to think the heat monitor is a bad idea, I'll take it out.  But I'll take out the limit on the number of enemies that can appear; that should discourage harvesting fairly quickly. Smiley
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Read January 02, 2009, 08:40:28 pm #22
berilium

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

I was too late to give my vote (still two entries to play left) but my congratulations to Worstplayer!!

So when does the next session officially start?

Happy 2009 btw  Cheesy
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Read January 02, 2009, 09:34:03 pm #23
the2bears

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Open

I was too late to give my vote (still two entries to play left) but my congratulations to Worstplayer!!

So when does the next session officially start?

Happy 2009 btw  Cheesy

Yeah, I think that was the case with a few other people too.  I may "test" holding the voting open longer for the next session... which begins in a few days Smiley

Bill


the2bears - the indie shmup blog
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Read January 04, 2009, 05:46:22 pm #24
hima

Re: Session 7 Finished - Voting Closed

Congratulations Worstplayer! Cheesy

I was too busy with the new year stuff , thus I was too late to give my vote as well. I have three entries left to play and write a review Sad    I think the voting length is long enough though, it just that the voting was during new year.

I'm glad that there are so many entries this time and from what I've played/seen so far they are all good entries as well.
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