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|-+ Moosa's Entry - (Withdrawn)

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Read September 01, 2009, 11:54:24 pm #0
moosa

Moosa's Entry - (Withdrawn)

I think this is a really solid theme, and I have some ideas. I haven't felt very interested in working on game development in any form since the last session ended, but usually something about these sessions manages to get me excited and working again... No promises yet. Cheesy
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 03:34:25 am by moosa »
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Read September 04, 2009, 04:10:34 am #1
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Ugh. All my ideas seem bland. >_<
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Read September 04, 2009, 04:55:33 am #2
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Bland isn't necessarily bad. Smiley


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 04, 2009, 06:20:31 am #3
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

To me it isss...
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Read September 04, 2009, 06:34:58 am #4
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

If you say so.

But I think it's more about what you learn in the process of what you make. That's kind of the idea of these sessions.(as I'd like to think) To grow as developers, and create small fun shmups to play.

If you think your ideas are just so horrible, why don't you share with us what you're thinking, so we might provide feedback to make them better?  Tongue


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 04, 2009, 07:26:20 am #5
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

That's an idea... I'm rather self-conscious about those things though... >_<
I need an interesting concept, something just right, or else it wont get me excited enough to work hard and get it done.

I had been thinking about something revolving around a sword weapon that would freeze time (and bullets, and probably enemies) in its wake, building off of my last entry... I like the idea of not having to try and start almost from scratch, if you know what I mean... T_T

My most recent idea was to have a vertically oriented shmup with a sword as a primary weapon, and a mouse-aimed laser blast that could cancel bullets within a blast radius (Missile Command-style) and possibly stun and/or maybe damage enemies. This I think is more interesting, but I worry about what it will take to do justice to these kind of concepts with level/enemy designs.

Anyways, those are a couple of ideas.
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Read September 04, 2009, 07:33:20 am #6
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Actually, I think a sword/laser gun combo would be pretty fun!

Although, maybe you could add a small recharge or charge time to it.(for fairness) Pulling from the older session ideas, maybe you could make chain reactions of bullet canceling? This could be an effective gameplay mechanic, as you'd be strategically using your laser to wipe out large clusters of bullets between you and your enemies, to close in on and hack up with your sword.

On a final note- Let me stress how much you shouldn't use the mouse cursor. Although it's ideal for the 'other type' of shooter game, it generally doesn't work so well with shmups.
Your orientation is vertical, so the player would be aiming in a relatively similar direction all the time.
An effective aiming method is something akin to what Warnings Forever used. Having upon button press, your aim adjusts in opposite to your movement pattern. It works very efficiently.
Another efficient method, that might actually work well, could be to have two buttons to adjust direction. Since the shmup is vertical, this would only be used sparsely, so it should flow nicely.

For your consideration. Smiley
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 07:36:47 am by jakman4242 »

My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 04, 2009, 07:47:55 am #7
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

I'm taking your warning seriously, but I don't really see how it could be such a problem. Arena shmups use it all the time, and I've never noticed that being a problem. Warning Forever's aiming method may work well, but it definitely takes some time and practice to get any good with it. Also, this particular concept would surely require both fast reflexes (responsiveness) and a high degree of accuracy to be effective, which I don't see coming from any other control method. I imagine Missile Command would be a bit crappy to play with an analog control stick, let alone a PC keyboard, if you see where I'm coming from.
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Read September 04, 2009, 08:27:35 am #8
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Well, arena shmups usually don't have huge amounts of bullets flying at you. But rather, enemies flying at you.

With a mouse cursor, your attention usually shifts to the mouse. If you're not giving attention to the mouse, you're aiming blind. If you're giving attention to the mouse, you can't avoid incoming bullets effectively.

This is the atrocity known as mouse aiming~  angel


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 04, 2009, 08:44:33 am #9
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

I've seen worse ways of dividing the players attention. I recall that a certain shmup made for one of the big Shmup-Dev competitions required you to basically play two shmups at once, divided on the left and right sides of the screen, with the same set of controls, and I believe it was rated rather highly. I couldn't manage to play that one myself.

It divides your attention, yes, but I don't think that makes it a bad thing necessarily. It can be part of the challenge, and I believe it could be quite exciting. There would of course be things to watch out for...

That being said, even if it does turn out to be a bad idea (which it may), I can't see it working with any other control scheme.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 08:47:43 am by moosa »
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Read September 04, 2009, 08:54:29 am #10
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Alright, go for it, then! Grin

And that game was Excellent Bifurcation by Linley Henzell, for the Autofire comp. I play it often.


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 04, 2009, 03:55:32 pm #11
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

With a mouse cursor, your attention usually shifts to the mouse. If you're not giving attention to the mouse, you're aiming blind. If you're giving attention to the mouse, you can't avoid incoming bullets effectively.

This is the atrocity known as mouse aiming~  angel
That's an excellent point, though more an issue of design choices than intrinsic to the control scheme.  Arena shooters are notorious for giving the player ship narrow-firing weapons so you have to aim carefully unless shooting into a crowd, cramming the arena with enemies so you have to concentrate on evasion and crowd control, and (thanks to Geometry Wars) blinding the player with rendering effects.  Adding non-shootable projectiles to that particular mix would make the game much too hard.

Giving the player ship firepower more like a regular shooter would make "shoot in their general direction" a valid tactic and resolve the first problem, and having enemies fire relatively slow, obvious bullets that cancel when the parent unit dies might help with the second.

I'm going with the dual-analog/mouse-aim arena shooter style this time so I'll have to stay alert for that.  The player ship in my previous games had 10 hit points, which very likely masked any playability issues...

And that game was Excellent Bifurcation by Linley Henzell, for the Autofire comp. I play it often.
Ah, Excellent Bifurcation.  It was just past the limits of what I could do, though having a large monitor didn't help.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 04:58:55 pm by kdmiller3 »
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Read September 04, 2009, 04:58:21 pm #12
worstplayer

Re: Moosa's Entry

Speaking of Geometry Wars, PC version has an interesting control scheme for mouse aiming called "orbit". The mouse acts like a virtual joystick, moving in a limited circle around the ship. It's surprisingly accurate and eliminates most problems with mouse control (distracting cursor and aiming being relative to player's position).
Of course it has it's limitations too (you can only control direction, not distance).
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Read September 04, 2009, 05:01:01 pm #13
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

I should check that out again since I have the PC version.  (I didn't have an Xbox 360 at the time.)
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Read September 04, 2009, 09:31:41 pm #14
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Yeah, I'm starting to think this particular combination of mechanics wont turn out too well, basically for reasons discussed. A Missile Command-ish laser would require quick reflexes and very good aim, and considering the player ship's other weapon would be a close range sword attack, I could see those both being a little overwhelming to coordinate together... >_>

I do think it might be cool to try for a "shmup" which the primary weapon being a close-range sword and then have some kind of bullet-countering ability though.
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Read September 04, 2009, 09:47:15 pm #15
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

I used a Missile Command weapon for my Session 3 entry Rocket Bomb, so you can check how that works out if you want.  It doesn't cancel enemy bullets, but enemies don't start shooting back for a while.  The main caveats are the player ship lacking close-range armament (aside from setting off missiles at zero range), and absorbing multiple hits.
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Read September 04, 2009, 10:22:13 pm #16
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Thanks kd. Smiley

Edit: I had to turn all the effects off to get Rocket Bomb to run on my laptop, but I thought it was really cool! However I still think it would be really difficult to make a shooter with mouse-aiming and a primary melee weapon at the same time work... It seems like ship movement and aiming with the mouse is about as much as the brain can efficiently handle at one time.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 11:48:45 pm by moosa »
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Read September 05, 2009, 12:02:25 am #17
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

I thought of something... O_o It involves Ninja Gaiden.
Gah it's already Friday...
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Read September 05, 2009, 12:05:53 am #18
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Gah it's already Friday...

You still have about 11 days, don't worry.  Grin


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 05, 2009, 09:44:29 pm #19
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Well, my idea right now is pretty ambitious, as usual... I guess that's what it takes to get me remotely excited. -_-.
I still haven't even looked at GM.
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Read September 06, 2009, 01:30:09 am #20
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

I threw together a spaceship...?

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Read September 06, 2009, 01:33:24 am #21
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Pretty Cheesy
I like the circular wings/spike combo.


Although I'm all for top-notch 3D graphics, but I think it'd do you well to break into your GM editor before too long. Smiley
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 01:35:11 am by jakman4242 »

My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 06, 2009, 02:42:20 am #22
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

I'm unfocused. I can't help it. ><
Sometimes I just want to make a cool looking radial energy meter.
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Read September 07, 2009, 04:23:59 am #23
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Cheesy






>_< I know, I knowww.
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Read September 07, 2009, 04:33:27 am #24
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Looks wonderful.

I especially like the glowing parts.
Keep it up.  Grin


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 07, 2009, 05:20:35 am #25
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

Ooo... shiny
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Read September 07, 2009, 09:09:23 am #26
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

*yawwwn*

Can I just put together a design doc and a couple mock-up graphics and let you guys play the game in your heads..?
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Read September 07, 2009, 09:11:33 am #27
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Sure!

These sessions have no obligations. Wink


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 07, 2009, 09:31:11 am #28
worstplayer

Re: Moosa's Entry

That ship sure looks pretty, can your engine handle it or is it going to be pre-rendered 2D?
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Read September 07, 2009, 09:33:49 am #29
jakman4242

Re: Moosa's Entry

Hmmm, you have a knack for designing ships, moosa. The more I look at that thing, the more I like it. Grin


My game design blog -- A bit outdated, but you might like to take a read anyway~
Or read my new blog!~ (which I do update)
My blog.
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Read September 07, 2009, 10:32:00 am #30
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Its not as pretty as last sessions... but that one took a good number of hours and was finished before the session started. I figured I needed something a little sleeker, so I tossed this together.

I wish I could say that its my crazy modeling skills, sculpting that from scratch, but it's more like "assembling skills," as I use DOGA and the individual parts are all pre-made. I appreciate the compliments though. Smiley

Worstplayer, it will be pre-rendered, with png transparency for those smooth, anti-aliased edges, and even some nice animation if I waste enough time on it (likely).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 10:39:15 am by moosa »
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Read September 07, 2009, 04:08:00 pm #31
CaptainJustice

Re: Moosa's Entry

Moosa, get to work! 0:< grumblegrumble.

C:
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Read September 07, 2009, 10:31:41 pm #32
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Hehe. I'll try. ><
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Read September 09, 2009, 05:41:40 am #33
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

I managed to focus just long enough to render/format/include my basic player ship graphics into my engine ("engine" meaning last sessions entry). Thats as much as I've completed so far on the project outside of the conceptual design.

All my coding and everything is so unorganized... I reeeeally need to build some generic, shmup-oriented scripts, and such reusable crap. It sucks trying to unravel everything you've wound together to get your last game to work because it doesn't work for what you're trying to build now. T_T

Now time for some details:

The design concept, as it stands, will only use one button this time and have a single weapon. Yay for simplicity! The possibility is still open for a secondary button to activate something like a good old-fashioned and generic bomb, but it's not integral to the design.

The standard, and only, weapon will be a melee sword. No main guns in this game (is that legal? Wink). The player will be capable of performing up to three consecutive slashes as a combo. The player may also hold the attack button down to perform a "charge attack," similar in manner to the spin attack in Zelda games (and may just look the same).

The way in which bullet-canceling is achieved is far from original, but the way in which you take advantage of it is (I hope) much more exciting. To cancel bullets, you simply destroy the enemy which fired them. When a bullet is canceled, however, it turns into a harmless and stationary orb of residual energy which hangs around for a short while before disappearing. This energy can be absorbed and utilized by the player by performing a charge-attack, which in combination with the absorbed energy creates a powerful super-attack.

Here's how it works in detail:
You destroy a couple enemies, cancelling their bullets and leaving a number of residual-energy orbs on screen. Next you hold the attack button, which begins to charge your weapon. As it charges, orbs from anywhere on screen are absorbed by your craft. Once the attack is charged, releasing the button will release the attack. If the amount of energy absorbed through orbs is above a certain threshold, the attack becomes a super-attack. Otherwise, it is performed as a regular charge-attack.
There are three different forms of super-attack. Each is performed by activating the charge at a different point within the three slash combo. So:
  • Slash->Charge : Super-Attack 1
  • Slash-Slash->Charge : Super-Attack 2
  • Slash-Slash-Slash->Charge : Super-Attack 3

Those are the basics, though there are more details not discussed here.

Current Outlook:
Chances of completion: low
Chances of semi-functional concept: moderate
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Read September 09, 2009, 08:25:07 pm #34
CaptainJustice

Re: Moosa's Entry

But, if you destroy the enemy, won't the bullet have to be past you already?
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Read September 09, 2009, 08:57:10 pm #35
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

But, if you destroy the enemy, won't the bullet have to be past you already?
Sure sounds like it.  At least you don't have to run around to collect the orbs.  Smiley
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Read September 09, 2009, 09:19:42 pm #36
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Yes, which makes bullet cancelling in this concept less about surviving and more about destroying. >:]
There is also the idea of making really slowww bullets that linger around the screen for a while, but I really don't think I want to go there.

I may need to consider point-blanking as a potential issue though, now that I think of it.
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Read September 09, 2009, 09:25:26 pm #37
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

I may need to consider point-blanking as a potential issue though, now that I think of it.

The two main ways I see to handle that is to make enemies telegraph their attacks, or to make bullets intangible for a short time after being launched.  (The latter is how Garden of Coloured Lights seems to handle it.)
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Read September 10, 2009, 02:39:06 am #38
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

Well I could just have each enemy check the distance to the player craft before firing. Or I could make enemies that indicate they're about to fire, telling you to get out of the way, or something like that. There are ways about it, but I guess its not worth worrying too much about at this point seeing as how I don't have much of anything in place yet...

The current state of my mental health is making getting anything done this session pretty difficult for me, I'm sorry to say. I'm rather demoralized.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 02:44:09 am by moosa »
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Read September 10, 2009, 04:24:37 am #39
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry

Bummer.  I hope you get to feeling better soon.

Even if you don't end up finishing this round, there's always next time.  Don't beat yourself up too much.
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Read September 10, 2009, 04:44:53 am #40
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry

What I probably should do is focus on building some nice, organized, generic functions into a template that I could use for future prototypes. If I could get myself organized, this would all be a hell of a lot easier. Of course, as it is, it's just as difficult for me to focus on that right now as it is to focus on this session.
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Read September 16, 2009, 10:48:58 pm #41
berilium

Re: Moosa's Entry

moosa! I wasn't expecting that. I hope your it is just a very short term demoralization. I was liking your idea.

Can I just put together a design doc and a couple mock-up graphics and let you guys play the game in your heads..?

I think it would be fine IMHO.

What I probably should do is focus on building some nice, organized, generic functions into a template that I could use for future prototypes.

I concur. I myself did that. And I constantly add new features to my little engine but they are added as I come up with new ideas for my games, so is a constant and never ending task I suppose Smiley

Better luck next time and take it easy.
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Read September 17, 2009, 02:36:27 am #42
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry - (Withdrawn)

I appreciate the thoughtful/encouraging words Berilium. Smiley
I may cheat and try to rig up the same concept for next session... We'll see how it goes.
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Read September 17, 2009, 02:55:05 am #43
kdmiller3

Re: Moosa's Entry - (Withdrawn)

I may cheat and try to rig up the same concept for next session... We'll see how it goes.

Works for me.  Grin

I strongly suggest using the two-week downtime between sessions to build your game engine and try out your ideas in a no-pressure environment.  Your concept seemed solid, so it's definitely worth trying to build a playable game.  Game development can be a fun hobby.  Smiley
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Read September 17, 2009, 03:15:31 am #44
moosa

Re: Moosa's Entry - (Withdrawn)

I think you're absolutely right. The thought of writing volumes of generic code bores the hell out of me though, I must say.
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